How this Missouri designer’s flat fee frees him up to be creative – Business of Home

The 50 States Project is a yearlong series of candid conversations with interior designers we admire, state by state. Today, were chatting with St. Louisbased Jacob Laws, who launched is eponymous firm six years ago, and recently made his first big hirehis partner, Michael Feldman, as the firms COO. He shares how coming from a creative family influenced his career, the way his billing encourages creativity and camaraderie, and how winning a prestigious award brought him exciting new opportunities (and challenges).

Tell me about St. Louishow did you come to start your business there?I am St. Louis born and bred, and my family has been here for generations. But my path to design was this really lovely fairy tale story of me letting out my inner Picasso on my parents walls at age 4. I was young and my parents wanted me to have an outlet for my creativity instead of ruining things, so they enrolled me in art classes at the Saint Louis Art Museum. One of the first classes I remember takingand I was youngwas on architecture in St. Louis.

St. Louis has such a rich history of architecture. You might get this wonderful French-Norman chateau out in the country that was built in the 1930s as a familys country estate, but in the city you have these Second Empire and Italianatestyle townhouses that are just out of this world. The city is so old and spread out and when all of these different areas converge, there is this melting pot of architectural styles that make up not just the metropolitan area, but also the surrounding counties. I was always asking my mother to drive me up and down city streets like Portland Place and Westmoreland Place, wondering what it was like to live in a house that was like a museum. I was that weird kid that didnt want to go outsideId rather talk to my aunt about her new window treatments.

Did you always know you wanted to be a designer?I come from a relatively creative family, so they were always very supportive of my creative pursuits. My Uncle Phillip, my moms younger brother, was an amazing architect and interior designer, and I was just in awe of him. Some summers or spring breaks, I would go shadow him in Los Angeles or New York. I was too young to actually work, but I could peek around his life and work. He was always a hero of mine.

Thats amazing. I feel like so many people say, I didnt know this career was possible.Totally. I did, and it was just a normal thing to me. I would have these adult conversations with my friends who were my own age, and they totally didnt get it, so I started to talk to adults about the things that would eventually become my profession. I wanted to talk shop before there even was a shop.

How did you set out to pursue design?I went to college for art with a focus in art history, but it wasnt centered around interior design. During the classes at the art museum [as a kid], I was like, I love this, so this is what Ill start doing and well see where it takes me. After school, I owned a T-shirt company where I did all the designs myself. Then I started working for another firm; when the design director there left, I became their senior designer. I was there for seven years, then went out on my own six years ago.

How did you know it was time?It was just a gut feeling. There was this pivotal momentI was working on a project that was super high-stress, very intense, and it literally put me on Xanax. It was a family that moved to St. Louis from Los Angeles, and they needed everything done within 32 days. That was back when I was like, I can do anything! I dont need to sleep! And I just bit off way more than I could chew. I was doing it all on my own [and there came a] moment when I was like, If Im doing all of the work on my own, I can do this on my ownand under my own scheme, the way I want them done and branded.

I thought about what my life would look like if I told my business partner I was going to go out on my own for about a day and a halfand then I actually did it. I didnt plan on doing it, it just kind of happened. I was like, You know what, I think its time for me. And the next day I went to the bank and opened a business account and just started from there, working out of my house.

A condo renovation for an out-of-town clientCourtesy of Jacob Laws Interior Design

How did you find those early clients when you started on your own?I had a lot of very loyal clients, and luckily by that point I had been published enough locally that a lot of people knew my name. Honestly, about 90 percent of my business is referral-based. For instance, one of my favorite clients, whose house my architect and I completely dismantled, added to and rebuilta friend was having tea at her house and saw my work (she had seen my clients house before the renovation), and was like, You know, were thinking of doing A, B and C at our house in the city, give me his number. And that turned into what is now a three-and-a-half-year-long project that Im still working on.

Thats amazing.I absolutely adore these clients. Theyre wonderfulvery private, but hysterical. Theres a funny side-note story, if I can go on a tangent. So Ive been imprisoned at home for like three months longer than anybody else because I slipped down the marble front steps of that clients house when they were icy, and I shattered my ankle in three places.

Oh, no!I literally could not get out of bed for a month and a half. My last follow-up appointment with my surgeon was two days before everything started shutting down, so Ive been at home for way longer than the COVID isolation. Needless to say, I am tired of looking at every single wall of my house. I was finally at a project all day yesterday placing accessories and rearranging things that have been delivered during the isolation period, and Im like a kid in a candy store. I dont have to wear a boot on my ankle, so Im just like, Im putting on Guccis and Im getting out of this house! I couldnt wait.

An alluring kitchen in gleaming shades of gray and whiteCourtesy of Jacob Laws Interior Design

So you started your own firm five years agoand it was just you for the longest time?It was just me.

What did that look like? How are you doing these big projects by yourself?Well, I am a control freak, so thats how I do it by myself. It was never a messy or disorganized operation, because Im a very organized person, but it just was overwhelming. I couldnt see the forest through the treesit became normal for me to have eight balls in the air and to be spreading myself so thin that I didnt even realize how stressed I was.

Last summer, I officially brought on my boyfriend, Michael, as the COO of Jacob Laws Interior Design. The firm was at such critical mass, workload-wise, that I either had to redevelop my operations or stay like a mom-and-pop shop and be OK with that. Its been a transitionIve had to let go a little bit and delegate, and thats been hard. Even if its something that I dont know how to do, like back-end operational stuff, and even things that I dont want to do, Ive had that do-it-yourself mentality for so long that its just kind of embedded in me.

So its just the two of you?Ive had interns and assistants [as needed], but my first real hire is my second-in-command, who is Michael.

Laws helps clients who arent already collectors discover what art resonates with them. The artists proof photograph by Michael Eastman was the starting point for this great-room renovation.Courtesy of Jacob Laws Interior Design

What made him the right person for the job, and how did you decide to jump into business together?Michael and I started dating the summer I started my firm, so he saw it grow from its infancy. He was there for it. He went to Emory and worked for mortgage companies in Atlanta for 16 years before coming back to St. Louis, because hes from here too. So he could see from an outsiders perspectiveand as someone who knew how things should be run from a professional standpointhow things were not working. For the longest time, I was like What do you mean? Ive got this! But he could see the stress and the toll it was taking privately.

How do you divide up the work now?Im doing exactly what I was born to do. Im the creative. I design and source everything, and Michael [handles] back-end operations. It works welland is something that maybe should have been done a long time ago.

If you have a new client, for example, do you take that meeting together? Or are you still spearheading that part of the business as well, like the onboarding?Weve been taking those meetings together so that Michael can learn that end of the business. To me, the first meeting with a client is kind of like a first date. Some clients arent good for me, and Im not good for some clients. Of course I would like to say yes to every project, but at this pointand Im lucky in this regardif it isnt going to be creatively fulfilling for me, I probably wont take it, because Im working on projects right now that are so special and that [do bring me] real happiness. It just isnt worth the extra stress to cram something else in there [that wont be meaningful].

A chic master bathCourtesy of Jacob Laws Interior Design

A condo kitchen with lustrous finishesCourtesy of Jacob Laws Interior Design

Left: A chic master bath Courtesy of Jacob Laws Interior Design | Right: A condo kitchen with lustrous finishes Courtesy of Jacob Laws Interior Design

How do you decide what to say yes to, or what you have the bandwidth for, or whats going to be the right fit?Intuition? I know that its not a one-size-fits-all thing for designersand believe me, five years ago I would say yes to everything. Id be like, OK, you have a $10,000 budget and a 10,000-square-foot house? Ill do it! Thats an exaggeration, but I really would try to figure out a way to make it happen. Its trial and error, and again, Ive had really loyal clients and a lot of my business is referral-based, so in the beginning, before we even really meet clients, they know what theyre going to get with me.

And what do they get? What is working with you like, and what is the process that you go through with your clients?I think I make it fun for them. I like to educate my clients along the wayto give them the opportunity to know what theyre choosing, why Im selecting things, and why the pieces that Im selecting are important to the overall feeling and design.

I would imagine theres a lot of storytelling you have to do to make that work. Totally! One of the things I love about our industry is that what Im doing is essentially creating a story within a space. Thats how I perceive design: telling a story and creating an atmosphere. I think that its my responsibility to take my clients on this ride and let them see what the end results are going to look likeor at least have an idea of what theyve gotten themselves into, in their minds eye.

How big are your current projects, and whats the scope of work youre typically taking on?Most of the homes Im doing right now are pretty substantial. Like I said, St. Louis is an old city with amazing turn-of-the-century architecture, and those houses are quite largeanywhere from 8,000 to 11,000 square feet. And then two other projects are about 5,000 or 5,500 square feet.

Thats not to say I wouldnt work on anything smaller, because design kind of transcends space. Thats something that I am always trying to promote: It doesnt have to be a huge, expansive space to lend itself to a project or a creative vision. But most of our projects right now are pretty big.

A new development Laws completed last year features a large-scale botanical wallcovering.Courtesy of Jacob Laws Interior Design

Is most of your work in those historic neighborhoods?I was doing a new-build project in Chicago last year, as well as helping a friend whos still building her house in the northern suburbs of Chicago. Im all over the place these days, which really happened after winning the Fashion Group International Rising Star Award in 2018.

How did that come about, and what did that change about your opportunities?It wasnt planned at all! St. Louis was once the second-largest garment district in the nation after New York, and the garment and fashion industry created a lot of jobs in the Midwest. Im on the board of directors of the Saint Louis Fashion Fund, which works to create jobs here againweve already opened two factories ... for knitwear, which is awesome. And because of the designers that the fashion incubator here supports, two of our first class of designers were both up for FGI awards in 2017, so I went to New York for the awards ceremony at Cipriani and was just blown away by the other designershousehold-name designersthat were there in support of FGI.

Another Fashion Fund board member is very involved in FGI here in St. Louis, and when it came around in 2018, she told me that she nominated me for the home design and product design category. And I was like, But I dont have a product linewhat do you mean? So I took custom pieces that I had designed myself for several different projects, and those became a capsule collection, so to speak, that was presented to the FGI board in New York. I knew that I was a nominee, so we went [back to New York for the awards ceremony]the whole family packed up and went to the big city. And then I ended up winning!

What was that like?It was just this wonderful moment professionally that pivoted my expectations for what the future could beand what it will be. It made me see things in the far distance as not just a pipe dream, but tangible things that could actually happen, and that were really happening in that moment. It was that right time, right place [experience] when you feel that yes, this is what Im supposed to be doing, this is where I need to be going.

So is that collection in the works?Its still in the wings. I started taking meetings [and have mentors] pointing me in the right direction as far as what kind of collection to create and how many pieces. But with retail being what it is right now, is there a place for us in the market? And if there is, where is that place? When I started out, I was creating a luxury high-end collection, and we were talking about Bergdorfs or the fifth floor of Bloomingdales in New York. Thats how Kelly Wearstler started her product line, and where I saw myself. But the way things have changed, who knows? Maybe we take a beat, step back and revisit it in two years.

A kitchen renovation for a client Laws calls a breath of fresh air.Courtesy of Jacob Laws Interior Design

In your design work, how do you approach billing?Thats one thing were working on now. Ive always charged a design fee instead of billing hourly because it was easier that way. It isnt necessarily a set fee, but depending on the scale and the budget of the project, I establish a design fee and then that client basically has direct access to me and my product lines for the duration of the project. I have designer friends who only bill hourly, but to me that seems very complicated; I dont want to have to be timing my conversations with a client and be billing them every time we talk. To me, that makes the relationship and connection that Im building with my clients, who do become friends of mine, seem a little forced or fake. Like, Youre paying me to be your friend so thats the only reason Im listening to you kind of thing. I feel like I have more freedom to create when Im not thinking about billing all the time.

Do you charge markup for the product youre installing as well?Yes, we do charge a markup, which depends on the project, the budget and what vendor were using. We dont use an across-the-board markup.

Do you ever get pushback from clients on how you charge?No, because were really transparentand also, some clients dont want to know. They couldnt be less interested: That is why we hired you; we just want you to do your thing and we dont want to know or need to know. And I get itits like, I didnt tell my surgeon how to fix my ankle. Thats been the mentality and the attitude of most of our clients. Its, This is your game, youre the boss. But if they want to know, Im open with them.

If I say, My fee for this project is $100,000, I cant remember the last time someone was like, Well, Im not going to pay that. And if that was the case, I probably wouldnt take the project because that just sets the tone for the entire project. Like, if this client doesnt see my value, then theyll nickel-and-dime things throughout the entire project, it makes things more stressful, and it takes double the time because then youre going to have to go back to reselect, negotiateand sometimes there just isnt room in a markup to negotiate. A price is what it is.

How did you land on your feeand for someone whos looking to make the switch from hourly to a fee, how did you start to map out what the right number was?It depends on the scale of the project, but I know now how much time Ill be investing in a project after the first couple meetings with a client. If it is a total renovation where were gutting the 8,000-square-foot house down to the studs, I know that thats about a year-and-a-half to two-year project. And thats a lot of time out of my life. So its just kind of a matter of setting a standard of what youre worth and what your time is worth

A living space in a 1948 home renovation Laws completed in Ladue, MissouriCourtesy of Jacob Laws Interior Design

You said you know what the fee should be after the first couple of meetings. When in the process do you bust out a contract and start talking money?Thats easyit just depends on the client. Some want to sign a contract within the first hour that youre meeting with them. They want to get down to business; theyve already decided that they want you to work on the project with them, and theyre all about the bottom line. Other clients want to hang out and shoot the breeze, and like I said, its kind of like a first datetheyre trying to feel you out and youre trying to feel them out, and you just want to see if youre going to vibe.

With the flat fee, do you get stuck when you have indecisive clients?That can be frustrating, because if youre going back and reselecting, youre like, Ugh, I [already] designed this whole project. Luckily, that doesnt happen often.

What are your biggest overhead expensesdo you have an office now that its the two of you?When Michael became COO, he was very opinionated about the fact that I needed a studio. It got to a point where I was working on such large projects that every surface in the house was covered in samples. My beautiful Saarinen table, you couldnt even tell it was there. I had a printer plugged in on the kitchen counter. And for a designer to live that way is a little soul-crushing. Looking back, I dont know why I dragged my feet for so longit really was the fact that I just was not used to changing the way I was doing things or delegating responsibility. It was a matter of me letting go and saying [to Michael], OK, you know better, youre seeing this from another perspective. What do you think I need to do? Now, we have a great studio in the St. Louis design districta converted loft in a former Model T factory, with the old car elevator still in place! Were on the fourth floor and we love it; the space is fantastic and it gets great light.

Has it changed the way you work?Oh, totally. I mean, I love our house again. And it has completely changed the day in, day out. I work out of trays, so Ill have like an old bracelet that I love or a piece that I bought on vacation that Ill be inspired by, and Ill put that in a tray with some fabrics and kind of wrestle with what needs to be edited for a few days. Those trays are sitting around the office, along with stacks of samples or fabrics. Now, theres a designated place for a messa beautiful mess, but a mess. Weve been there for not even a full year, so its still kind of new to me. Its a totally new way of workinga new world.

The home was originally designed by midcentury architect Eugene Mackey for himself and his family.Courtesy of Jacob Laws Interior Design

You said youre thinking about changing the way you charge. What would that look like? I am the kind of person that wants everything to be in place and right now, but with the restructuring of the business, in order for the firm to grow to where we want it to be, it just isnt all set in stone yet. For one project Im working on right now, weve charged our design fee, but Im also keeping track of my hours so we know which way of charging is more beneficial and more cost-effective, or where we make more money. But Ive found myself forgettingI will fall into a rabbit hole of looking at rugs online or something, and Michaels like, How long did you do that for? And Im like, I dont know, an hour and a half? So it really is hard to changethe way Im researching, even.

I was going to say, would a switch like that change the way you have to work in a lot of ways?For me, I think so. It would change my motivation. Right now, the way I charge with just a flat design fee, it gives me more space creatively to not have to worry, Did I charge enough? Am I being compensated for what Im doing appropriately? Is it worth it to totally change, to reinvent the wheel for myself? What were doing right now is kind of like trying on different hats.

Would you see growing and adding different employees? I would love to add additional employees. It would be great to oversee different designs but also be able to delegate responsibilities so that I have more time for other things. Which is, again, something Im still working on: a nice life-work balance.

When you figure that out, you call me back.I will give you the formula! Im still trying to figure it out myself. When youre somebody like us, so used to working all the timeeven if you dont mean to be working, youre kind of working. Michael and I travel a lot, and we spend the end of every summer on Cape Cod. Even when were walking up and down Commercial Street in Provincetown, Ill bop into some new store and end up shopping for a project.

Another master bathroomCourtesy of Jacob Laws Interior Design

Do you text off-hours with your clients? Are you 24/7 available?I try not to be, but Im really bad at it. So yes, I do text after-hours. That was something that even my therapist was like, Unless its an emergency, I dont take your calls. And Im like, I know, but its different! But how is it different? I try not to be text-happy with a client on the weekends; its just a matter of professionalism. At the same time, thats hard for melike I said, I become friends with my clients, and Im not charging them to be their friend. The lines become blurred as far as the whole texting thing, especially because clients will have ideas at 8 p.m. on a Sundayand I will too! But I will also screenshot something so that I remember to come back to it on Monday.

What keeps you inspired right now? What is something in the design space that youre most excited about?Going anywhere. I kid you not. History, art, architecture and travel are the things for meits a driving force behind my creativity. Not being able to travel right now, I have 100 percent felt a difference in my soul.

To learn more about Jacob Laws, visit his website or find him on Instagram.

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How this Missouri designer's flat fee frees him up to be creative - Business of Home